MJ: We are in a holocaust in our country and that has escalated to over 20 million, maybe 21 or 22.
JK: Right.
MJ: And it’s been going on for fifteen years. What do you think it’s going to take to stop the holocaust here in America? And number two, do you think it can be stopped?
JK: I will tell you something that is my private opinion. It’s not something that I can prove to you. When I say that I don’t mean that it can be publicized, I just mean that there is no proof that I can offer for it. I am not pointing to any particular Bible verse or anything. But, if you look at the tradition of the major prophets and look at the times they were in. Over and over they are describing that judges can be bought. Jerusalem goes whoring under any tree or hill top with any god that she feels that she wants to. You just look at the picture that was painted of Jerusalem when the Lord sent major prophets. Then you look at the time now, and to that extent I would say that there is a connection with Scripture in terms of just looking around the world right now and trying to piece it together. I personally feel that.. and I don’t want to discourage anyone when I say this, but the basic picture of abortion will not stop in the absence of a catastrophe. Now, there are all sorts of catastrophes that could happen. If the Lord were to come again, obviously that would be a catastrophe in the eyes of unbelievers. If AIDS were to pass the epidemic threshold which is 6% of the total population, it would start moving up toward 51% which is what you would call pandemic, if became a much higher thing and started cutting much deeper into the hetero population, that’s an example of a catastrophe. Or a nuclear war, or a communist takeover, these sorts of things. The absolute worst thing that could happen for this whole planet is for everything to go along with the status quo, because then the judgment that God hold in reserve is even greater. Hitler and his people did not stop doing what they were doing because they had moral qualms about it. They stopped doing what they were doing because we forced them to. You know this whole thing about pro-choice now? That’s bologna. They are murdering people, there is no choice. They evolved in that and it’s the same with Mr. Hitler. Hitler did not stop doing what he was doing because he chose to, and the fact that he had to be forced to stop was that the western civilization slipped back morally. If Germany could have come to the conclusion that it was morally wrong and stopped for that reason I don’t think we would have had abortion. So this is really just a continuation of the German situation.
JK: (cont’d) But, in terms of whether it can be stopped or not, the other side of this whole thing, is because we are pro-life workers, each of us has the tremendous pleasure of knowing at least one woman who had a baby as the result of the efforts that the Lord brought to pass through us. This is a tremendous privilege. I would say most of the pro-lifers in the entire country have never had that privilege even though there work accounts for very much. But, still in a way we know people, we have the faces of the women in our minds right now and the faces of their babies stored away, that we know that we if hadn’t gotten out of bed that morning and overcome all the fear and so forth, humanly speaking… as Dr. Schaffer would always say… “humanly speaking” those babies would have died and the souls of those mothers would have been on the path to hell. And for that matter I’ll tell one even worse, our own souls, who know where we would have been with the Lord, if he had really been tapping at our heart. I am not saying that, that is what you have to do to save yourself, I’m just saying Jesus wants us to walk with him. But anyway, what I was going to get at… I ramble too much, (laughs)
MJ: That’s okay.
JK: What I was going to get at was this, as far as those women are concerned, abortion did come to an end. You see what I’m saying? As Mother Teresa says over and over and over… all these atheist reporters come up to her and ask, “Mother, why are you working in the black hole of Calcutta?” There is however many tens of thousands of people dying in the streets and you pick up your 500 a day, imagine, I don’t know what the number is, but imagine picking up a 100 dying people in a day and taking good care of them, I mean good care of them. And even more than that… I mean even an atheist could even do that if they had enough money. Right? Giving them enough emotional support so they can die with dignity which is part of what Mother Ts ministry is all about. Just imagine how much effort that is. But anyway, so the atheists come and they say, “well mother you come and pick up these 100 or 200 bums of the streets and half of they die anyway. And the other half, after you patch them up, they are going back out on the street and they are going to die next week.” She always has her standard answer that she gives. She says, “it’s a drop in the ocean, but without that drop, the ocean would be one drop less.” I have said this to myself many many times while I am sitting in a jail cell, or sitting in a court room. We have got our one or two babies and as far as the Lord was concerned, he probably would have been prepared to ground the whole universe to a halt just to make sure we got our lazy tails out of bed that morning when we were having second thoughts. You know what I mean, that feeling before you do a rescue. You know, and He said, “Jim, the whole universe has been ground to a halt so you can take another 5 minutes sitting there in bed overcoming your fears. Get down there! That’s how important that baby is to me.” And there’s a bigger picture and because of the television and everything, we are used to seeing TV pictures of everything that is evil in the whole world in 30 minutes on headline news, but that’s not our problem. I hate to say it, but in the bigger picture I suppose it’s our problem.
JK: (cont’d) The Germans had this expression of Weltschmerz, “you want to have this pain for the whole world.” Well, I do have a pain for the whole world, I wished I could preach the Gospel to every human being. But I also know that Jesus cannot call me to do that. Not if he wants to keep me in the flesh doing this and having this amount of energy and needing so sleep and so much to eat and so forth. There are limitations. I can think of a lot of Pro-Lifers that I have met that have burned out because they wouldn’t take care of themselves and wouldn’t set limitations for themselves, or would not allow the Lord to set limitations on themselves. Had they done that, we would have a lot more manpower, we would have two or three times the amount of manpower in the rescue movement alone. And in the CPC movement, I would say that we would easily have two or three times the manpower there. If the people had just paced themselves. This is probably an aside, but there has been many times during my pro-life career where I have taken a whole day off and I didn’t answer to anyone for it on this planet. There are times when I took two weeks off. Just before New York I was in a hidden location where nobody knew where I was except for one priest. Finally toward the end I finally broke down and called Randall Terry, I didn’t want to tell him where I was. But for two weeks, I walked up and down the beach, because I knew the upcoming Operation Rescue event in New York was going to be a heart attack. It was going to be a panic and there were going to be people up in my face asking me to do things all week long and that’s exactly what happened. And as it was, I barely made it through the week. Having had the resources of two weeks of silence and prayer to build up.
MJ: It’s a marathon race. A lot of people don’t realize, especially pro-lifers is the abortion is only one front. Abortion just happens to be the watershed point, it happens to be the tip of the iceberg. Even if we do stop abortion which I really think we can. I think it is a very realistic goal, but even if we do stop abortion, there is still a lot of work to be done and a lot of other fronts and we definitely just can’t kick back. If you really want to evaluate how well your movement is doing, sometimes its good to listen to what your enemies are saying about you. Because they have a different perspective and can sometimes tell it best. This is something that Kate Mitchelman who is the Executive Director of the National Abortion Rights Action League said. This is her quotes: “Up until now the anti-choice groups have been chipping away at the right to abortion with a chisel. But now they picked up a sledgehammer and they are trying to crush the whole thing. They obviously feel that it is within their reach to overturn Roe V. Wade and make abortion illegal again. And the frightening thing is that I am not sure they are wrong.”
JK: Hum… it’s great.
MJ: That is heavy when we got the abortion industry shaking in their boots. I mean they are scared, we have got them scared Jim. Now that the iron is hot, if we could just mobilize the masses to do it. What do you think it’s going to take to stop abortion?
JK: Well that’s what I was saying, it would take a catastrophe which would force people to remember God. In this country we have obviously forgotten about God.
MJ: Do you think a series of rescues would be enough of a catastrophe? If the rescue movement were to gain more momentum and numbers within the next few years?
JK: I’ll tell about another quote that was made that same week by a similar person. And this was after a week along effort which I don’t think anyone would ever deny that this was the greatest rescue effort that has ever been done. In terms of manpower, organization and prayers and just raw success that the Lord heaped on this thing. Suffice it to say, it was a great effort and one of the abortionist said during that week, “well these people can do what they want. But basically what it boils down to is that next week we are going to be here and they aren’t.” That’s one of the reasons I am anxious to get back in New York. But, I’ll tell you another little story, quickly and that is, I was at a pre New York, OR (Operation Rescue) rally held on Long Island. Not a rally, it was just where Randy was speaking to a group of people that was let’s just say your average right to life group. I’m not casting aspersions, believe me these are great people. Randy was going to speak at the end of the agenda, and they ran through their agenda and there were two people there who we knew at the beginning of the meeting that were identified to us as being clinic workers for Bill Beard. Or I should say, mill workers that were there sitting in that meeting. I don’t know why they were even allowed to be there, but the right to life people said, “that’s okay we don’t have any secrets.” And Randy said the same thing, when he started to talk. But anyway, so they went through this meeting and we waited for Randy to go on and it was about an hour and a half. They talked about all sorts of things, legislation, education, “we got to get into this church” and “we got to hold a dinner here” and “we got to have a potluck,” all kinds of stuff which is all fine work. Now I do remember toward the end that they had a 15 minute discussion on the cheapest source of a precious feet pin. There were about 30 people there and they were discussing where can you get precious feet pins for the least amount of money. All of this I admit is great pro-life stuff, and during this whole time these two women sat in the back and just sat there joking the whole time with each other. Then Randy Terry comes on, and they became extremely quiet, and the expressions on their faces became extremely sullen. And after a while, they realized the impact of what Randy Terry was going to do, or what he was hoping to do with the Lord’s blessing. They wanted to ask some questions and they got very angry and got very upset. For that matter, if they had known that Jim Kopp was standing in that same room, the one who is being sued by N.O.W. for opening up a Crisis Pregnancy Center in the city of San Francisco, the Devil’s play ground, I would have imagined that they would have been quite upset about that too. Especially if I want to target and open up a CPC across the street from Bill Beard’s mill, or whatever. You see what I’m saying? When you get into the more intense pro-life stuff, suddenly just like the point you were making, you enemy perks up and says your hurting me! Your hurting me! Well, that’s what I want to do.
MJ: Joe Scheidler said that he attended these abortionist conventions and has told that the number one thing they complain about… they don’t complain about Jack Wilke and National Right to Life, (Jim interjected, “as great of a worker as he is”) and the pro-life political agenda. When they talk about the problems that they are having, and who is giving them the most problems, they are talking about the activists. They are talking about the people who are doing the sit-ins, the picketing and the sidewalk counseling. They are talking about, “how are we going to stop these people.” That should be a good barometer to go by, I would think.
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